20 • Leading with integrity and courage

In life, things happen to us that we can't choose...our only real choice is how we respond.

Jo Tarnawsky is a woman who made it to the very highest levels of the Australian Public Service, working closely with the country’s top politicians. Despite her success as a female leader with a strong track record of public service built up over twenty-five years, Jo found herself on the wrong side of a poor workplace culture in the Australian Parliament that led to her suffering harm — to both her career and formidable personal resilience.

In a wide-ranging conversation, Jo discusses:

• her career experience and advice for leaders (and women in leadership) aspiring to make it to the top;
• her reflections on the circumstances that led her to take the Australian Federal Government to court over its workplace culture; and
• her thoughts on yet another review of workplace culture in a Parliament that passes the laws that are supposed to protect people from harm.

This episode also mentions workplace suicide and mental health. If you’re affected by the topics discussed and need to talk to someone, please make use of support organisations and resources in the country you're listening in.

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Charting your own path, especially as a woman in leadership

In achieving prominent positions as a woman in leadership at the highest levels of diplomatic and government service, Jo talks about how she learnt what really mattered was not trying to 'fit in' within an existing (male-dominated) culture, but the value of bringing her own skills, experiences and personal style to the roles she was appointed to.

That philosophy helped her to succeed in a wide range of culturally different environments and male-dominated workplaces. Throughout this episode, Jo reflects on the qualities of leadership that provide lessons that underpin the integrity and courage required for being an effective leader.

Jo talks about the essential qualities of a being a successful leader of diverse and varied workforces, which she summarises as:

I think it does come down to the way you treat people

Jo goes on to explain,"I am not someone who's ever placed my value on that person based on their title, so I think we should treat everyone well, and that goes from the person who may be holding the door open, or the person answering the phone, as much as the person who comes in with all the bells-and-whistles to the person with the fancy title."

She talks about the vital importance of a leader not misusing their positional power, treating people with dignity and respect, and seeking to understand what might be going on for someone in the workplace when problems arise.

Being the best leader means getting the best from your people, as a leader

Jo's also had extensive experience in the Defence sector, working with people who may have a far greater technical expertise than those in leadership positions. She illustrates a point made in episode 10 by former Canadian Fire Service Captain Steve Farina about good leadership meaning relying on the expertise of those around you, not thinking you can do it all yourself.

Jo expands on this point with her own observations that:

"the skill of the leader is being aware of what you don't know"

She expands on this in her view that the role of the leader is to support their people, and knowing "how to identify and get the expert in the room that you do need, and then helping to support them to convey their message in a way that's going to land with the leadership and the decision-maker."

Power dynamics and the reality of workplace culture

Jo made headline news in Australia when circumstances led to her making a complaint about the workplace culture she was experiencing in the Australian Parliament. Despite a cultural review of the Australian Parliament's culture, Jo's experience did not reflect the promises made, leading to her suing the Australian Government in the Federal Court in 2024.

Jo shares her story and, in particular, the lessons she's learnt about the way power dynamics work in organisations and the reality of workplace culture. That includes the flaws with complaint processes that purport to protect people, but in practice can exacerbate the harm caused to complainants through the application of confidentiality clauses and preventing them seeking the support they require after an often traumatic and difficult experience.

Jo observes that:

Power will move to protect itself. The infrastructure that we're told is there to protect people, is actually to protect them and the status quo

We discuss how Jo's experience serves as a practical illustration of the work of researchers who've appeared previously on the podcast, including Associate Professor Dorothy Suskind with her "Predictable cycle of workplace bullying", and Nathalie Martinek's work on the "Scapegoating playbook" and the role of power dynamics.

Our comprehensive conversation covers the human impacts of a poor workplace complaints process, the role of NDAs in suppressing the ability of inquiries and reviews to learn real lessons (including the evidence from the UK Post Office Horizon scandal inquiry and the results of the "Ban the NDA" campaign in Victoria).

The podcast concludes with Jo's reflections on yet another Australian Parliamentary review into its workplace culture and whether or not more promises to "learn lessons" can be truly realised.

Lessons to learn from Jo Tarnawsky

Jo’s story isn’t just one of resilience in the face of circumstances she found herself in, it’s a genuine opportunity for people (if they’re willing to listen) to learn from someone about what works, what doesn’t and how to make the public sector workplace better for everyone.

Leaders, aspiring leaders, women in leadership (and in the Defence sector in particular), HR practitioners, complaints and Professional Standards Unit teams, workplace investigators and those conducting independent reviews will all find valuable knowledge from Jo's perspectives and lived experience.

In this episode, there are lessons to learn covering:

• The qualities of effective leadership, and how to lead with humanity, integrity and courage
• How to get the best from your people, as a leader charting your own course and style
• The impact of organisational power dynamics and the harmful effect on workplace culture
• What not to do in your workplace culture complaints process
• The harm caused to complainants by the complaints process and workplace retaliation
• What's needed for independent reviews into workplace culture to be effective in learning and changing

Chapter markers

References and links

• Visit Jo’s website
• Connect with Jo on LinkedIn